Conference Expansion: Louisville, BYU Targeted By Big 12 And How It Could Affect The Mountain West
Expansion is back! Not sure if I am really that excited about talking about this, but it indirectly could affect the Mountain West. Looks like the Big 12 is looking to go after the BYU Cougars and Louisville Cardinals. BYU already spurned the Big 12 a few months ago, but now they and Louisville could be the next targets for the Big 12, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education's Brad Wolverton.
BYU's decision to stop negotiations with the Big 12 was over television money due to BYU having their own contract with ESPN and BYUtv. For people who say it was all due to Sunday play for why BYU did not join the Big 12 last time around, well those people are not connecting the dots because if Sunday play was a non-starter the discussion would have never made it to television money.
Well, the Big 12 is set to have a meeting today to discuss expansion, and even though various schools presidents do not want a title game because it could cost a team a spot in a BCS or BCS title game, but it also is a financial boon for the league as well.
Louisville to the Big 12 could have the biggest affect on the Mountain West because the Big East is trying to get to 12 teams and the addition of Navy for the 2015 season puts them at 11. Also, to be considered is if West Virginia can win their lawsuit against the Big East and join the Big 12 for this upcoming season.
If West Virginia can get out then expect Pitt and Syracuse to leave for the 2013 season as well as Louisville. The Big East is fighting for teams and if West Virginia leaves this off season they are down to seven teams in 2012 and then in 2013 if Louisville, Pitt and Syracuse all leave that leaves them with only four teams. Once Boise State, San Diego State, SMU and Central Florida join that leaves them with only eight teams, and half come from a non-BCS ranks. Who knows how much a television will really be worth with a league of those four teams and Rutgers, South Florida, Connecticut and Cincinnati; here is a clue: Not much.
So once again the Mountain West has at least a chance to try to lure back Boise State and San Diego State to the Mountain West and make the league more stable. We will see if Craig Thompson will actually try to bring back his largest market in San Diego and the best team in Boise State. Going by history I would lean toward saying no, but Thompson did surprise us by going after Nevada, Fresno State and Hawai'i.
He has a chance again to show the pros of why Boise State and San Diego State should return. The two big reasons against going will be money, because it will not be very much and the travel argument will come up again even though it is not a big issue, but it could be if the money is much lower than expected.
Here will be the Big East and Mountain West in 2013:
| Mountain West |
| Air Force |
| Colorado State |
| New Mexico |
| UNLV |
| Nevada |
| Fresno State |
| Hawaii |
| Wyoming |
| Big East |
| Cincinnati |
| Boise State |
| Connecticut |
| Rutgers |
| Houston |
| SMU |
| South Florida |
| Central Florida |
| San Diego State |
| Navy (2015) |
Now, if we remove Boise State and San Diego State from the Big East the league is really a glorified Conference USA, if that, and even with Boise State the league is not much more attractive than the Mountain West. So, if the Mountain West has a chance to keep Boise State and San Diego State they should hope for West Virginia to win their lawsuit and then have Louisville go to the Big 12.
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yeah but the buyout is 5 mil...unless since BSU nor SDSU hasn't "officially joined" they wouldn't be affected
"Natty Light: For when you absolutely, positively have to knock uglies with a corn-fed co-ed from the opposing school who’s half your age." -- jonfmorse
With the addition of Navy...
the buyout increased to $10M, don’t know if that includes BSU and SDSU since technically the still aren’t included in the league yet.
Unless the Big East folds before 2013
by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 25, 2012 1:34 PM PST via Android app reply actions
Maybe
Basketball is the reason for the Big East, even when it was a semi-power in football (back when VCU and Miami were members). But if they are missing Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, and WVU, I wonder if even that’s viable. And UConn and Rutgers are begging to get into the ACC, not that those two matter much in football.
The Big East will probably remain in name (Villanova, St. Johns, Georgetown, Marquette, and Cinci is a good core for a basketball only conference), but definitely falling to mid-major level. It’s kind of sad.
Go Cuse. Go Utes. Go Kings (hockey version). Go Panthers (hockey version). Go Marlins. Go Dodgers. I despise the NFL and NBA, so don't bore me.
by LeftCoastMan on Jan 25, 2012 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
I don't understand why anyone thinks WVU has a chance to win their ridiculous lawsuit
They have nothing on which to base their suit. They signed a contract that they are required to honor. End of story. The only way they go to the Big 12 next season is if the Big East allows them to buy out of their contract for less than they had agreed upon. Marinatto already said that isn’t going to happen. Why do people continue to fantasize about this?
I have read stuff
that the Big East will settle for a boat load of cash.
by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 25, 2012 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
And the other side of the story...
First of all. Marinatto is a dumb twit. He could have gotten a boatload of money by packaging the Big East Football and Basketball to ESPN. Instead, he sat on his butt while the Pac-12, SEC, and ACC moved forward. WVU will probably not leave in 2012, but I’ll bet quite a bit that the Cuse, WVU and Pitt will be long gone before the 2013 season starts.
Amusingly, the Big East cashed a $2.5 million check from WVU as the first half of the $5 million early departure fee. In law, cashing that check is tantamount to accepting the contention of the plaintiff. I bet some dollar amount will let the three schools go. Say $20 million each.
Go Cuse. Go Utes. Go Kings (hockey version). Go Panthers (hockey version). Go Marlins. Go Dodgers. I despise the NFL and NBA, so don't bore me.
by LeftCoastMan on Jan 25, 2012 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
WVU won't win...
But they will be in the Big 12 next year, as litigation consultant let me tell you that contracts are broken everyday, and very rarely can the court force a party to complete a contract with the exception of property agreements (rental contracts, mortgages, investments, buying/selling of companies) and since WVU is an agent of the state I doubt the Big East will be able to to argue that. Their best argument would be to claim that WVU athletics are separate from the university and the state and that by entering into the Big East they treated as such. And that is a huge stretch, and since now the Supreme Court has ruled that organizations are protected by the same laws as people are, forcing WVU to stay in the Big East would be similar to a form of slavery. Schools can’t force coaches to stay and coach their teams if they get a better job, so conferences shouldn’t be able to do that either. WVU will have to pay for breaking their contract but they won’t be in the Big East next year…
"We are who we are. People say what they say. The outcome is the outcome. We are proud of ourselves." -DeLoss Dodds 9/21/2011
by TowerPower on Jan 25, 2012 9:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Doesn't matter
If these institutions are out this year, or next year: they are out! They do not want to come back in! If others get a chance, they will begin the process as well. If enough go, ND will get cold feet and join the ACC to be with Duke, etc. If ND is not in the Big East and the ACC needs another team, it will invite U-Conn. Game over. Even if the teams can’ t go until next year, it’s death to the Big East. if the ACC goes to 16, do you think that the almighty SEC will stay at 14? It will try to fill in the gaps as well. The more area covered, the more money it can bilk out of CBS. If the SEC raids the ACC, which is expected (even with a $20 dollar exit fee) the ACC will take more Big East teams. Then there would be NO WAITING and all would hit the door. The question is: will the B1G go after Maryland and Rutgers? It desperately wants the New York – Baltimore markets for its network. The dominoes are wobbling, the question is: will they fall. There could be no fee or waiting for Pitt, Syracuse or WVU, if they fall right.
Because they apparently just did
Between $11 Million and $20 Million. Should be announced Thursday. So, what will happen with Pitt and Syracuse? No Louisville will be free to bolt if the opportunity presents itself.
Realistic
For the MW, or more precisely, for the alliance, this is disastrous. I can’t see SDSU and BSU falling back into the MW, but more likely that the BEast will grab Temple, ECU and a few others to shore up its line. This was reported months ago, when WVU was being targeted for Big XII admission. ESPN had reported that Louisville was telling recruits that they would be playing in the Big XII.
That's worse than Conference USA
And still not much of basketball one.
Go Cuse. Go Utes. Go Kings (hockey version). Go Panthers (hockey version). Go Marlins. Go Dodgers. I despise the NFL and NBA, so don't bore me.
by LeftCoastMan on Jan 25, 2012 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
If I had my druthers
I’d druther hold out for the PAC 12 when they expand to the pac 14. Some one needs to plant a bug in the ear of the pac 12 they need BSU and the Air Force Academy as football only schools, and as such, the two newbee’s would serve a three year probationary period to
prove they are capable of 60%+winning seasons.
Pac 14 could dictate the dropping of either school for failure to meet conference standards, after probationary period.
The two newbees would receive partial conference shares during probation equal to their end of season win percentage.
I repeat, BSU and AFA both would make good additions to the Pac12 as football ONLY
additions. That is how I would druther see it.
In what way does the Pac 12 benefit from adding Boise State and Air Force, though? They have a title game, they have a hugely profitable network and TV deal, they have national respect, they have a strong hold on one of the top three states for recruiting (California). What do Boise State and Air Force bring to the table for the Pac-12? Yes, Boise State has an excellent football program, but are they going to mean more dollars for the Pac 12 in TV revenue? No, they will mean less money as Boise and Air Force bring virtually nil to the table market wise. They have Colorado to cover the Colorado market and the Idaho market is totally negligible- not nearly enough to offset splitting the TV contract an additional way, even if you give Boise and Air Force a lesser stake. Additionally, a 14 team league means that the monstrous scheduling alliance made with the Big Ten would be a wonky exchange- there would be Pac 12 teams without a guaranteed date against the Big Ten which again hurts the money intake for the Pac 12 network. Taking Boise and Air Force also removes any chance of ever being able to take the Southwest powers Texas and Oklahoma (and their anchors Tech and Okie State) which Larry Scott has been entirely unwilling to close the door on. There is absolutely no upside for the Pac 12 in adding Boise and Air Force, even as football only members.
http://www.frogsowar.com/
by HawkeyedFrog on Jan 26, 2012 3:08 AM PST up reply actions
Agreed.
the Pac-12 didn’t take Oklahoma and Oklahoma State. They are not going to take BSU and The Air Force Academy.
by Utah-UCLA alum on Jan 26, 2012 8:13 AM PST up reply actions
druthers
We are going to see more conference alignments, and more 14 to 16 team formations. Adding two ‘household’ teams to the pac 12 does not hurt. Brand recognition overlaps state boundries.
Viewer market shares, BSU vs VT: BSU vs UG; AFA vs Navy; proved national and regional viewers were willing to watch ‘elite’ football-even if the team came from a lower populated town.
Logic, and druthers, would dictate BSU and AFA would be proximity teams that would serve the trial period adjustments. Each team would have to prove they could stand toe to toe in the conference. BSU has a fair record against UW,ASU, UO, OSU, AND UTAH (5and 1).
Football only teams cannot expect full shares, but it still would be a win/win situation for both the pac 12 and any newbee team elite enough to join.
No way
Boise State has a $61 million dollar endowment with only $11 million in research. Compare that to the lowest Pac 12 (Oregen State level) the lowest have around $300 million with around $200 million + in research. The B1G, SEC and ACC want AAU members (Missouri, Texas A & M, Rutgers, Maryland). To the Pac 12, I am sorry to say this, but as an academic institution BSU is regarded as a little over community college level. There is no academic prestige in AFA or BSU. CSU has a $393 million dollar endowment, with almost $300 million in research. It is a much better fit, except its football team sucks. If you are an AD, you must think about Endowment size, mission viability, research capacity (actually #1 for many conferences), academic facilities and lastly athletics. The SEC had three AAU members this year, next year, with the new arrivals, they have 5. Until BSU and AF gain a certain level of academic notoriety, they will not be looked at by the 4 big conferences, the Pac 12 being one of them. The reason Rutgers, ND and Maryland are on the radar for the B1G, is the research endowment coupled with AAU membership: conferences crave this more than anything. The sports will come with the increased money and visibility, not like the flailing Big East: give athletics some money and the institution will magically produce a nobel prize winner. Why is Northwestern a part of the B1G? It is, by far, the best research institution. While being in the B1G brings in $20 – $30 million yearly for its members, it is nothing compared to the research missions. Ohio State has a 6 BILLION dollar endowment. Every B1G is over a billion. SMU is in that range. These, however, pale in comparison to Harvard’s $32 billion, with Yale and Princeton around $26 – $28 billion. Besides: the Pac 12 and B1G, which have to be considered together, don’t want partial member institutions.
I understand your point
but your numbers are off. Some of your endowment figures are too high and I know for sure Ohio State’s endowment is 1.6 billion. And Notre Dame is not an AAU member, though I do believe they should be.
by Utah-UCLA alum on Jan 27, 2012 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
ND like BYU doesn't do the "right" research
and research is just one part of the equation or else Rice and Tulane would be in a Big 6 conference…
"We are who we are. People say what they say. The outcome is the outcome. We are proud of ourselves." -DeLoss Dodds 9/21/2011
Mistake: Michigan
My mistake: I meant Big Blue…
Endowments
Conference Rank National Rank Institution Location Endowment Funds Percentage Change YOY
1 7 University of Michigan Ann Arbor, Michigan $6,564,144,000 9.4%
2 9 Northwestern University Evanston, Illinois $5,945,277,000 9.2%
3 26 University of Minnesota Minneapolis, Minnesota $2,195,740,000 5.3%
4 30 The Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio $1,869,312,000 13.2%
5 32 Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana $1,633,034,000 12.0%
6 35 University of Wisconsin Madison, Wisconsin $1,551,384,000 13.0%
7 41 Michigan State University East Lansing, Michigan $1,449,408,000 8.1%
8 43 Indiana University Bloomington, Indiana $1,371,025,000 11.8%
9 44 The Pennsylvania State University State College, Pennsylvania $1,368,031,000 11.6%
10 48 University of Illinois Champaign, Illinois $1,289,871,000 9.6%
11 54 University of Nebraska Lincoln, Nebraska $1,143,051,000 18.5%
12 81 University of Iowa Iowa City, Iowa $791,231,000 17.1%
MW numbers:
Institution Nickname Location Type Enrollment Year Joined Endowment Research7
United States Air Force Academy Falcons Colorado Springs, Colorado Federal 4,417 1998 $24 million $44.3 million
Boise State University Broncos Boise, Idaho Public 21,179 2011 $61 million $11.2 million
Colorado State University Rams Fort Collins, Colorado Public 24,875 1998 $398 million $295.3 million
University of Nevada, Las Vegas Rebels Las Vegas, Nevada Public 29,069 1998 $114 million $50.8 million
University of New Mexico Lobos Albuquerque, New Mexico Public 34,674 1998 $279 million $197.6 million
San Diego State University Aztecs San Diego, California Public 33,790 1998 $109 million $70.0 million
Texas Christian University Horned Frogs Fort Worth, Texas Private 8,696 2005 $1,100 million $3.6 million
University of Wyoming Cowboys Laramie, Wyoming Public 12,496 1998 $220 million $74.7 million
Future Members:
Institution Nickname Location Type Enrollment Year Joins Endowment Research7
California State University, Fresno Bulldogs Fresno, California Public 25,613 2012 8 $91 million $8.0 million
University of Nevada, Reno Wolf Pack Reno, Nevada Public 17,679 2012 9 $186 million $102.0 million
University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa (Football-only) Warriors/Rainbow Wahine Honolulu, Hawaii Public 20,135 2012 $159 million Not Available
Former Members:
Brigham Young University Cougars Provo, Utah Private 33,000 1999–2011 N/A $25.6 million
University of Utah Utes Salt Lake City, Utah Public 28,211 1999–2011 $513 million $253.9 million
With TCU (which spent paltry numbers on research) and Utah gone, CSU is the big dog in endowments and research. If that institution figures out football, it will get poached. AFA and BSU just don’t compete. While you are right, most of these numbers are last year’s figures, and also ballpark figures, depending on what source you look at, they are very telling. According to these numbers, which are close to accurate, your estimate of OSU was $269 million too low, and I used OSU instead of Michigan: mea culpa.
Marinatto is a dumb twit...
Yes he is and so is Craig Thompson. If this gets any worse, the alliance should just be between the Mountain West division (12 teams) and the Big East division (12 teams) of the “Big Country Alliance” conference (the BCA), each playing in its half of the “conference” to reduce travel costs and preserve rivalries. Each one with a championship game (staying separate gives each conference its $13.6 FBS payout) and then a super championship game: MW champ vs. BE champ. Dissolve “the Mtn.” and get a real TV contract for both “divisions” or broaden it for tier 2 coverage. MW try to get BYU and UTEP, and the Big East can pick up ECU, Tulane (AAU and it is brings in New Orleans) and Temple (Philly).
Mountain West : Air Force, Boise State, Colorado State, New Mexico, UNLV, Nevada, Fresno State, Hawaii, SDSU, Wyoming, UTEP and BYU (with its own TV deal – affiliate membership)
Big East: Cincinnati, Connecticut, ECU, Rutgers, Houston, SMU, Southern Miss, South Florida, Central Florida, Navy (2015), Tulane (AAU!!!!) and Temple.
Its all about the Benjamins! Marinatto and Thompson are too dim-witted and slow to do anything like this. This would keep AQ and be a $$$ generator. Full memberships for SDSU and BSU would also make for better basketball, which they will lose as is. Cheaper travel and three football championship games would be huge!

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