Is Air Force, Big 12 Bound?
Bumped to the front page...
Most of us here have been busy pondering over which schools the Mountain West may invite to get to the magical number of 12, and its not just us, conference expansion seems to being heating up again all over. While some here (myself included) have focused on the recent the expansion plans of the Sun Belt and the re-re-re-reexpansion of the WAC, most others have been focusing on the possible expansion of the only AQ conferences that will not host a conference championship game next year, the Big East and Big 12. Now it seems their futures and the MWC may be intertwined. Over the last couple of days a few newsstories have intrigued me, many of which revolve around the Big East.
We all know the Big East (like everybody else) is expanding, but there is a great disagreement between the basketball schools that want to stop expanding to keep their league as small as possible, and the football schools that want to expand to 12 a stage a CCG. While this is obvious to even the average college football/basketball fan, the fact that both have began publicly stating their positions is making this lover’s quarrel all the more interesting.
Now while the basketball schools may approve another full member like Houston or Central Florida to appease the football schools and avoid an outright split, they may only do so if the football schools promise to stop expanding the already massive basketball league. This would only leave the option of adding Villanova (who plays FCS football and is already in the Big East) and/or football only members, if the conference was to have a CCG.
This much rumored debate has reemerged the option of the Big East extending football only memberships to Army and Navy. While both play in the Patriot League in all other sports, these service academies are currently Division I-A (FBS) football independents. Now neither of these would be slam dunk options for the Big East football schools, but they are in the core footprint of its memberships and their additions would benefit the conference as a whole and allow its Frankenstein hybrid experiment to continue on for a few more years. What the academies lack in football strength (mainly Army, Navy has been good as of late), they more than make up with national appeal and name recognition. There are more living members of these two military branches than the entire alumni of the Big East football schools combined.
While this move appears to be unpopular to the Big East fans, most of them fail to realize that not every addition needs to be a TCU caliber school. Besides their dreadful BCS record since the ACC’s raid of 2005, the Big East also suffers from a perception issue. At one time or another every school but West Virginia have been in the bottom three of the conference over the last 5 years, without a perennial punching bag or two, the conference members consistently look like one hit wonders. For example more people complained about an undefeated non-AQ TCU not playing for a MNC in 2011 than they did for an undefeated AQ Cinncy in 2010. And while I get not watering down a league -- like the Mountain West who already has a few punching bag members -- the Big East needs to model itsself after the three best football conferences (SEC, Big Ten and Big 12) who all have their designated whipping boys (Vanderbilt, Indiana and Iowa St). The addition of Army (currently) virtually guarantees that each school will have a win on its schedule, and Navy would actually add depth to the middle of the league.
Also in the news this week, it was reported that the Big 12 will keep its conference moniker despite only having 10 teams. While the Big 12 claims this is to preserve the existing branding efforts that the conference has established over its short 15 year tenure, many see this as a sign that the Big 12 may expand again, especially if the Big East expands and the Big 12 is the only AQ without a CCG.
But what does any of this have to do with the Mountain West? It’s all about Air Force.
While the Big 12 will go after Notre Dame and Arkansas as long shot options, ultimately most agree that BYU has a good shot at getting an invite, and though they may be tempted to grab those big markets most think that they’ll want to better define the conference’s footprint by bridging BYU to the existing members by reestablishing its presence in the biggest market they lost, Colorado. That basically narrows it down to Colorado State and Air Force, and most agree that Air Force would be the best candidate since it has a stronger football program and for the same reasons I listed above for the other service academies. Adding Air Force and BYU to the old Big 12 North brings back their conference championship game and puts them right back in the state of Colorado, adds the Utah and Salt Lake City market, plus the additional national following that comes with having BYU and Air Force.
But would they join? That’s the big question. The service academies don’t worry about money like other schools, instead their main goal is to increase enlistment numbers, which is why they play games all over the states. By joining an AQ conference, the academies would immediately see an increase in national attention and would benefit by having more of their games televised on major networks, however by playing a 12 team conference schedule it would greatly reduce their ability to travel around the country acting as a live advertisement for the service. This especially applies to Air Force who would play 8 Big 12 games and 2 OOC games against the other academies leaving it only 2 open games each year. With no public statements likely from these academies most can only theorize, but I will make a "bold statement" here and now.
If Army and Navy end up joining the Big East for football and become AQ’s, not only will Air Force be invited to join the Big 12 but they will also accept, assuming the MWC does not receive an AQ and no other major conference shifts (i.e. PAC16).
Air Force would benefit from Army and Navy getting the AQ bump and their athletic programs would in turn be perceived as more valuable of a commodity that the Big 12 could take advantage of. Air Force would also be compelled to join since I doubt that they would like being considered as an athletically inferior non-AQ or miss out the extra publicity that Army/Navy would getting with the increase visibility on the major networks. It seems pretty straight forward to me, I can already imagine a Navy recruiter telling a 17 year old kid that how he could come to Navy and play on ESPN and in a BCS bowl or go to Air Force and play on the Mtn. and hope for the Las Vegas Bowl. The point is that the MWC has be ready, with the possibility that the Big 12 (and possibly even the Big East) may poach a member or two they need to have a back up plan. We can all debate (as we have) on whether that means staying pat and working out a joint AQ deal with CUSA or grabbing a combination of Utah St, San Jose St, Houston, Rice, SMU, or UTEP to get to 12; but we all can agree that the MWC should be prepared for these worst case scenarios.
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You’re calling Illinois the Big 10’s whipping boy? I’m pretty sure after UM/OSU they’ve won the most Big 10 championships. I assume you mean Indiana.
I’m actually pretty okay with the idea of Army/Navy, the fanbases are amazing, they travel well and Coach Patterson was always trying to schedule at least one academy a year before we started playing Air Force in conference. They add a lot of national recognition, don’t add basketball teams and make the Army/Navy game a Big East property. They’d sadly have to change the date from their current post-Conference Championship Saturday though.
Indiana may make more sense
But typically Illinois has been pretty bad. To get the Big East to 12 teams they need Army and Navy for football and then grab two best teams from C-USA like East Carolina, Houston, Central Florida or Memphis. That would move their basketball league to 19 teams.
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by Jeremy Mauss on May 26, 2011 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Or just Army/Navy/Nova if they don’t want to split from the basketball schools (which a lot of the fans seem to want to do, really)
And I maintain Illinois is historically in the top half of the big ten. They’ve been to multiple BCS games and everything.
by HawkeyedFrog on May 26, 2011 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Why 2 more?
With TCU coming in they have 9, Army/Navy would put them at 11…so they’d only need one, either expand the basketball league to 18 or add Nova or try for another football only like Temple or East Carolina (Memphis, UCF, and Houston would all want full invites).
I didn’t really mention this but by accepting a fb only members and adding Army/Navy they could always re-expand in a few years if any of these candidates rise to the level of a TCU, Utah, or Boise St which as of now none of them has done, then they could dump the other football only member and even Army/Navy if they needed to. If Nova is serious about moving up they could still have a chance to dump the other fb only member but if they lock them in now they have very little wiggle room. If they do take Nova with Army/Navy I think the Big East would stand pat unless two BCS calibur schools pop up in their footprint (no way they only dump Army) or if they lose a member or two to the Big East/ACC.
it was early
and my math was way off apparently. I must have been thinking of two things at once.
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by Jeremy Mauss on May 26, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Air Force already plays 8 conference games with Army and Navy
So if the Big 12 gets back to 12 with adding AFA they’d be in the same situation they’re in now. So they’d basically be moving up in every aspect. Not the least of which is national exposure.
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good point, it wouldn't be much different...
except I guess for the level of competition, however they would be in the Big 12 North.
The main problem with this would be replacing Nebraska and Colorado in the already weaker North with BYU and Air Force would obviously make the league more lopsided towards the South. But hey if thats what Texas and OU want then I guess I’d be fine…
its bad for the mwc but if i was air force i would goto the big 12.
dan beebe was adamant about keeping the big 12 name. he surely has some teams that he wants in the conference.
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by wolfmanshowlforever on May 26, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know
I think that’d be about even. BYU is no Nebraska historically but Nebraska is only just getting good again. BYU will also get better with being in an AQ. And Colorado has been down for a while, I just don’t see them getting back up any time soon. AFA is an decent replacement.
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it would be close
I still think it would be less ratings with BYU and Air Force, but it would not be a huge difference.
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by Jeremy Mauss on May 26, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
In most cases I think schools can recruit better by getting into an AQ, but I think BYU’s super religious affiliation would put a ceiling on that sort of growth which is lower than most.
by HawkeyedFrog on May 26, 2011 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
But we still miss out on some of the top end LDS recruits
I think an AQ would give LDS recruits even more incentive to come to BYU and you’ll see a notable rise in our recruiting. I agree that there will still be a ceiling but it will improve.
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PAC 16 isn't dead
I still wonder if Big 12 will even be around in five years time. If it is, I suspect it might contain a number of MWC teams.
Pac 16 is dead
Big 16 and SEC16 were never alive. ACC16 and 16East were never even talked about beyond crazy ideas on the internet.
You just can’t make more money that way.
it just takes one conference fot it to be successful and the others will follow.
since larry scott is very pro active i see him adding 4 more teams.
Anderson Silva would never fight "Bones". He is too scared to fight the real P4P champion. Nick Diaz, the man who will prove to the MMA world that he is the best WW in the world. Still public enemy #1 and enjoying every minute of it.
by wolfmanshowlforever on May 26, 2011 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
^This
Larry Scott seems to have a firm grasp on what the market value for TV deals is. Since he originally wanted 16 teams, I’m inclined to believe that there is plenty of money to be made with a 16 school conference -the caveat being it has to be the right mix of 16.
by Smoove V on May 26, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
i bet he knows what teams he wants to target and given an invite to.
Anderson Silva would never fight "Bones". He is too scared to fight the real P4P champion. Nick Diaz, the man who will prove to the MMA world that he is the best WW in the world. Still public enemy #1 and enjoying every minute of it.
by wolfmanshowlforever on May 26, 2011 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
... but he also knows he can't get the schools he wants
without taking others that he does not want. Texas Tech and Baylor (and to a lesser extent Oklahoma State) are why there will be no Pac 16. And he has to get Texas, Texas A&M, and Oklahoma for the Pac 16 to even have a remote chance of working.
I'm not so sure
Utah took Baylor’s spot in the PAC 16 so Baylor is out of the picture completely, IMO
Methinks the PAC 16 hinges more on convincing A&M to head west instead of the SEC followed by navigating Texas politics. Although not ideal, I suspect Texas Tech would be acceptable substitute for A&M (if it went the SEC route).
Colorado took Baylor's spot...
Utah took either Tech, Okie St, or A&M’s spot if they head East. But I think the Pac16 w/ Texas is dead unless they can offer them more than they’d make in the Big 12 which looks like it will be around 40 million a year…
correct
Texas is who they want, but that is not going to happen with the Pac-12 keeping local media rights, and since Texas has their own ESPN channel they won’t join the Pac-12. Well, unless Larry Scott wants to make an exception.
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by Jeremy Mauss on May 26, 2011 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
From the linked article
“From everything I’ve gathered, the existence of the LSN wouldn’t necessarily be a Pac-16 dealbreaker.”
In other words
“I have no real sources and am making stuff up”
it depends on...
how much money they could offer, and how successful the LSN is going to be…while I hope for the best it could be a flop.
We're talking about the future so it's all speculation
I’m assuming Jon Wilner’s speculation is based on comments/information received from actual sources inside the institutions that would be involved.
If it happens
I expect UNLV to be the first one invited…
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This is all nice, off season chatter
But the Big 12 just made a lot of money, much of it not split evenly, in renegotiating their TV deals. So there is no upside right now for the lesser Big 12 schools to want to invite one, much less two schools, just to have market penetration in Colorado or any other place. And split their financial pie two more ways.
Plus Texas and OK probably like the ability to schedule the extra OOC games with patsies. And the coaches (and therefore the ADs) are all really happy to have the conference championship disappear. Of all the power conferences, the Big 12 was the one shot in the foot repeatedly due to the lack of the Big 12 championship game. Now, they can view themselves like the Big 10 did for the past decade or so of the BCS era and hope to get two Big 12 teams in regularly, even if they don’t make that “mythical national championship” game, just on the basis of traveling fan base, won loss records, etc., without worrying about being wounded by a loss in the conference championship.
I'd rather be surfing.
by Pac 10 Alum on May 28, 2011 9:27 AM PDT reply actions
actually...
The Big12 loses an OOC game since they’re playing a full round robin so 9 conference games instead of 8.
I agree that the premise is far fetched and mostly just off-season talk to fill the void but it is an interesting topic, the 1st round rights are up for renegotiation in two years and we could see something then but smart money would be on staying pat until the next round in 2025 or so…
Big 10 did for the past decade or so of the BCS era and hope to get two Big 12 teams in regularly
This is a good point that I’ve been saying since we lost CU/NU.
The Big 12 Championship game...
was a decided mess from the get-go.
Remember the K-State team from 1998? That loss to A&M cost KSU a shot at the national title AND the conference a couple extra million, and that was two years in. The coaches in this league HATED the CCG. They are glad to have a 9 game round-robin schedule and only three non-con games.
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trust me...I agree
my Horns lost to CU in 2001 and could have been in the MNC, and then nearly lost to NU in 2009 so yeah I’m not losing sleep over the lack of a CCG, but if the Big 12 is the only conference without a CCG after Big East expansion we may see some push to get it back especially if ESPN/ABC decides it will be more worth paying for two more teams to get one in 2015.

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