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Would the Big 12 invite BYU if the Big 10 Expanded?

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Why wouldn't they? They wanted BYU back in the '90's until Baylor was forced in.

They probably remember that and would still want BYU. TCU would be another Texas school that makes the south division have 7 and the north have 5, that would be disastrous for the Big 12 because they would then have to break up one of the rivalries in that division to move one of the Oklahoma schools into the North division. BYU is much closer to the North Division teams and would fit in perfectly geographically. BYU and TCU are about the same in talent and it wouldn't really matter talent wise which team they chose. BYU would be the obvious option if Mizzou went to the Big 10.

What I'm scared about is if the Pac-10 and the Big 10 both expand at the same time. The Pac-10's contenders are Utah and Colorado. Big 10 would want to pick up Mizzou. If they both expand, that would almost screw the MWC because the Pac- 10 would take Utah, done that's one down. the Pac-10 would also take Colorado and the BIg 10 take Mizzou. that leaves 2 openings in the Big 12 North Division. BYU, like I said, would be the obvious choice for one of the spots. There, that's 2 down, we're left with TCU and an open spot in the Big 12 North Division. Then if the Big 12 can't find anyone that's a geographical fit and will be able to compete in the Big 12, they will have to go with what I talked about in the previous paragraph, they would have to move one of the Oklahoma schools up to the North Divison and then invite a team to go to the south division in which TCU is a perfect fit for them. There, Our "Big 3" would be gone and we'd be stuck inviting almost all the candidates for expansion, even though some of them don't even deserve it. Boise St. might not even join us at that point and maybe even Fresno St. would turn us down to stay in the WAC. If the Big 10 and Pac-10 both expand, then the MWC is screwed unless...

Star-divide

We expand before the Pac-10 or Big 10 does. If we have already expanded to 10 or 12, then it is more likely that Utah, BYU and TCU would stay with us even if they got an invite. If we invite, Boise St, Fresno St, and Houston, then we will no longer be a top heavy conference. We will have 4 great teams in the conference and would have 6 marquee matchups of them per year. Not to mention we would also have Fresno St. and Houston playing against some upper tier MWC schools and maybe upsetting them, getting the conference popularity and improving the excitement of conference play. The 3 top schools we currently have would see that and realize that it might be a better idea to wait in the MWC and see if they get an AQ.

The MWC needs to expand before the Pac-10 or the Big 10 do and should expand to 12, that makes the conference even more interesting than if they add just Boise St. The top teams will be more inclined to stay even if they got an invite. If we don't expand soon we will have no shot at becoming an AQ for the BCS. We would probably be scrambling around for teams that didn't even deserve to be in the MWC, teams like SMU and UTEP. We need to expand and we need to expand now.

Poll
Who will expand first?
Pac-10
44 votes
MWC
55 votes
Big 10
67 votes

166 votes | Poll has closed

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Some thoughts

What if the Big 10 goes to more than 12?

Your observation on why the MWC needs to expand yesterday are correct. Here is a conversation on MWC expansion from over a year ago where I discussed the loss of negotiating power the MWC would have if they wait for the PAC 10 to expand.

I will be getting around to the MWC’s expansion options in a few weeks at my new digs.

Preview: WE NEED BOISE STATE NOW!!

BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter

by utesfan100 on Jan 23, 2010 3:44 PM PST reply actions  

I doubt the Big 10 would go more then 12

But the Big XII I think has all ready patented Big 14. There is still a problem even if the MWC invites Boise this summer, and that is if the Pac-10 chooses to expand before anyone knows if the MWC would gain an auto bid. In that scenario if they choose Utah I think the Utes have to jump to a sure thing and not wait and hope the MWC gains an auto bid.

by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 23, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

If the go to 14 or even 16

That could be the death of the Big to split like the old WAC did in the late 90’s and possible eliminate the Sun Belt because the MAC and C-USA would fill teams. Plus 14 and 16 teams is a scheduling nightmare just ask the MAC that has 13 teams.

by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 23, 2010 6:08 PM PST up reply actions  

14 or 16

is much better than 13. Even numbers make for much better scheduling, as you are not forced to include a team with a bye each week.

To derail the MWC, the PAC 10 would need to expand this summer for 2011. If the MWC is intact for 2011 (especially with the addition of Boise State) they will have an automatic qualification for 2012 and 2013, but be at great risk of losing it again for 2014 with any losses before 2013.

BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter

by utesfan100 on Jan 24, 2010 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

good point

MAC has 13 teams since Temple was kicked out of the Big East in football

by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 30, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Only reason to 12 is money

Some say that the pie will be less with more teams but if you think in the terms that there would be more games to be shown on the MWC tv deal that would bring more money back to the schools. I am almost certain this summer Boise will get and accept the invite to the MWC.

As for the other teams there was that rumor that Fresno, Boise, and Nevada would join the MWC and then gain BCS entry. I just have no clue what Craig Thompson will do because he has always said whats the point of expanding if we do not know, but he did change his stance that if it helps they would look at other teams (Boise St).

I do think 10 teams could be a good fit the league could do a Pac-10 style schedule where everyone plays everyone mainly because the MWC has five bowl spots and even with an extra conference loss they would fill that. Plus, the BCS money split 10 ways is much bigger then 12 ways. And to be realistic even if league goes back to ESPN their money for a tv deal would be on par with the Big East.

by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 23, 2010 6:12 PM PST reply actions  

BYU would be at the top of the list for the Big 12

What matters is what the Big Ten would do to the Big 12 (and it’s not the standard “Missouri leaves” scenario), so let me set this up. I’ve written a ton about the Big Ten expansion candidates and the impact that it may have on other confereces. Please feel free to take a look at my analysis using the “Big Ten Expansion Index”:

http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/the-big-ten-expansion-index-a-different-shade-of-orange/

The conclusion is that Texas is the real target for Big Ten expansion. For most of you, there will be a knee-jerk reaction of “That will never happen!” Once again, please read through the blog post and the 3 follow-up posts (which are linked to at the bottom of the original blog post) to understand why there is mutual interest and the financial implications, which has been confirmed by the multitude of Longhorns fans comments along with links to their blogs and message boards. The Big Ten is ridiculously wealthy in terms of BOTH athletics and academics, so if anyone thinks that they’re expanding with a “meh” move, it’s because of naivette.

If you’re skeptical about whether the Big Ten would look to Texas, you only have to understand one thing: how the Big Ten Network makes its money. As I expained in my blog post, the way that it makes money is to get into the maximum number of basic cable households at the maximum rate – pure and simple. That’s why the Big Ten is going to be much more interested in Texas and other non-Midwestern candidates than it was the last time it looked at expansion 5 years ago. In a 12-school scenario, Texas and Notre Dame are probably the only two candidates out there that would add enough households (assuming that Notre Dame gets the Big Ten Network more national distribution) to justify expanding. (Note that the revenue from a Big Ten Championship Game pales in comparison to what’s potentially at stake with the Big Ten Network, so don’t mistakenly believe that the Big Ten is looking at expansion simply for a conference championship game.) In a 14-school scenario, there’s absolutely no way that the Big Ten schools would make more revenue on a per school basis without adding the number of homes equal to what the state of Texas would provide. Some of the East Coast schools might be located in key markets in theory (i.e. Rutgers), but none of them have a proven track record of actually delivering those markets in the manner that Texas can.

If you’re skeptical as to why Texas would look to the Big Ten, you only have to understand how bad the Big 12 TV contract is compared to the Big Ten and then look at how it would get even worse if a school like Missouri left. Texas, even with every single financial advantage under the Big 12 revenue distribution system, still made $10 million less in TV money than every single Big Ten school. To put that into persepctive, the value of the entire Notre Dame NBC contract (which the general public mistakenly believes is really lucrative) is $9 million. Effectively, Texas is giving up more than the size of Notre Dame’s NBC contract by staying in the Big 12 compared to the Big Ten… and that’s just using today’s numbers. Moving to the Big Ten would automatically kick that revenue up even further with the Big Ten Network gaining basic cable distribution in the state of Texas plus the creation of a Big Ten championship game – you’re probably looking at closer to a $15-20 million per year bump in conference revenue by moving to the Big Ten. The increased travel costs are a “penny wise pound foolish” concern – that type of increase in revenue would dwarf any travel costs. On the flip side, Texas was left scrambling when the SWC imploded, so it doesn’t want to be around the Big 12 if Mizzou were to leave. Mizzou might not be a football power, but it represents the largest population base in the Big 12 outside of the state of Texas. Losing Mizzou would make the currently bad Big 12 TV contract even worse which can’t be made up by adding smaller population Mountain West markets (Utah has less than half of the population of Missouri). So, Texas has an interest in the Big Ten if only because of the CYA factor. Regardless of whether Texas is the richest sports program in America today, it can only stay that way in the long-term in a strong and viable conference (and it’s not as if though a university president is simply going to ignore making more money in BOTH athletics and academics, which you’ll need to see my blog post if you don’t realize that there’s also even more money for academics in play with Big Ten membership).

The feedback that I’ve received from Longhorns fans is that the one roadblock is Texas state political pressure (NOT the alums, who actually don’t like the Big 12 and realize that the conference is screwed if Mizzou leaves just like the SWC was screwed when Arkansas left for the SEC). Texas may not be able to leave (even though it wants to) without having to take Texas A&M with it. That’s really the reason why the Big Ten has opened the door to a 14-school scenario where it would need to take Texas A&M in order to get Texas (and the conference would be more than fine with that – A&M is still a good academic research school and isn’t a political welfare case like Baylor was in the 1990s).

This is where the Mountain West comes in because it will likely be the most negatively impacted if the Big 12 loses one or more schools (especially if those two schools are Texas and Texas A&M). BYU would be at the top of the list because it brings the Utah TV market like the Utes but also has a national fan base of LDS members. Once again, the #1 reason why schools in the Big 12 are looking to move are a lack of TV markets outside of the state of Texas. As a result, the chances of TCU receiving an invite are extremely slim unless the Big 12 loses BOTH Texas and Texas A&M (in which event the conference may find a need to shore up its Texas state base). If the Big 12 needs to replace 2 schools, you’ll see both BYU and Utah added. If the Big 12 decides to go up to 14 schools in the manner that the Big Ten might do it, then the Mountain West simply won’t exist if the Big 12 poaches 4 schools (who would presumably be the most valuable ones).

by Frank the Tank on Jan 24, 2010 6:34 AM PST reply actions  

Taking notes...

Awesome.

BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter

by utesfan100 on Jan 24, 2010 8:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Texas would not go to the Big 10

It may make sense moneywise, but they are going to have about 10,000 miles of travel every conference season. That would wear down on the team, and they would lose more games, and not make it to a BCS Bowl, where they would not make the motherlod of money being in a BCS Bowl offers. Texas would also be leaving the rivalries in the Big 12 South that generate more money than almost any other rivalry in the FBS. The Oklahoma-Texas Rivalry and State of Texas rivalries with Texas Tech and Baylor (What Frank is saying is that Texas A&M would be going with them). There is alot more money at stake by leaving the Big 12 than you are saying.

Rebel Rock

by rebelfan1 on Jan 24, 2010 8:53 AM PST reply actions  

Well, that's not what Texas alums have said at all and that isn't shown by recent history

In fact, Texas wanted to go to either the Pac-10 or Big Ten when the SWC imploded. Please see the links to news articles that I provided in Follow-Up #2. The Pac-10 rejected Texas (the Pac-10 requires a unanimous vote to expand) and the Big Ten had a 4-year moratorium on expansion at that point since Penn State was just added. It was ONLY at that point that Texas and Texas A&M approached the Big 8 to form a 10 school conference. Texas state politicans got wind of the plan and Baylor alum Gov. Ann Richards forced UT and A&M to take Baylor along or else face budget cuts and then Texas Tech supporters in the legislature did the same. That’s why the Big 12 has 12 schools today instead of 10 schools (which is what Texas really wanted – they wanted nothing to do with TTU and Baylor whatsoever).

So, Texas actually tried to leave A&M back in the 1990s. If you remember your history, Oklahoma was also a non-conference rival for about 90 years – they have only been in the same conference for the pat 15 years. Texas cares about playing A&M and OU, for sure, but they don’t have any desire whatsoever to play Texas Tech and Baylor or really any of the Big 12 North schools. Texas Tech and Baylor were forced upon them. My understanding is that the political situation changed in Texas since then where TTU and Baylor don’t have that type of support anymore, but A&M still does. I can’t emphasize that enough – UT cares somehwat about A&M, but they would LOVE to stop subsidizing TTU and Baylor.

The whole point is that Missouri leaving the Big 12 does severe damage to the #1 problem that all Big 12 schools face: their bad TV contract. If you honestly believe that Texas is just going to let Missouri walk away to double its TV money AND damage the Big 12 TV contract in the process, then you’re thinking like a sports fan instead of a university president (who cares a lot more about the financial budget and academics than preserving a rivalry or two). I’m not saying that this is a probability, but it would behoove everyone to check out what the Texas alums themselves are saying about this. They are NOT emotionally tied to the Big 12 (since they were essentially forced to join a conference that they didn’t really want to join with other schools that they didn’t want to take along) in the manner that Notre Dame is emotionally tied to independence.

by Frank the Tank on Jan 24, 2010 9:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget about academics, too, which are even more important

Big Ten membership means membership in the CIC (which includes the Big Ten schools plus the University of Chicago). What does this mean in terms of graduate research? Access to an average of about $500 million worth of funds per school. That makes the athletic revenue that we’re talking about look like a rounding error. Texas is a big football school, but it’s much more like the Big Ten schools like Michigan in terms of balancing academics and athletics than the football-is-all-that-matters schools like Oklahoma, Nebraska, and pretty much the entire SEC. The academically-minded people that actually make the conference decisions at Texas (and every other school) are going to weigh that factor more than even athletics.

by Frank the Tank on Jan 24, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Revenue differences

Frank has established a $10 Million increase in TV revenue. Travel costs for games a re near $750 thousand. With four conference road games this would add $3 Million per year in costs.

BCS and bowl money in BCS conferences are split far more equally by BCS conferences than they are in the MWC. I would think the difference would be less than $1 Million. Suppose this is $3 Million…

Texas would still make $4 Million more in the Big 10 than they make in the Big 12.

BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter

by utesfan100 on Jan 24, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Seems unlikely

But back when the SWC broke up Texas was close to joining the Pac-10

by Jeremy Mauss on Jan 25, 2010 7:32 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a good point

What if the Pac-10 invites Texas, then what?

Rebel Rock

by rebelfan1 on Jan 26, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Texas likes the Pac-10 a lot...

… but the revenue is a whole lot less than the Big Ten. While the Big Ten would provide a substantial increase in revenue, it would be a lateral move at best for Texas to go to the Pac-10. That revenue difference wasn’t as pronounced back in the early-1990s. Regardless, those are the two conferences that Texas would look at. They won’t look at the SEC because of academics (or the lack thereof).

by Frank the Tank on Jan 28, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't mean to to dominate this discussion...

… but the final point is that the Big Ten shares everything equally. It doesn’t matter if you make the Rose Bowl or go 0-12 during the season – every conference member receives the same amount of TV money and bowl money. When the Big Ten gets a 2nd BCS bowl bid, every single member of the conference gets an equal share of that money (not just the school that actually made that bowl). The thing is that even where Texas gets more money than every other Big 12 school where they receive incentives for TV and bowl appearances, it’s still about $10 million per year less than every single other Big Ten school (whether it’s Indiana or Ohio State) as of today. At the very least, Texas is going to take a long, hard look at that type of proposal. You don’t just say automatically, “No thanks! I’m not listening! I like taking road trips to Lubbock!!” to a minimum of a $10 million per year raise on the athletic side and many more millions of dollars on the academic side.

by Frank the Tank on Jan 24, 2010 9:28 AM PST reply actions  

indiana must have the worst coaches and atlhetic directors in the history of college football

if that is true. not only have they been the bottom feeder for the big ten confernece for at least 15 years. i know they made a few bowl games but the 8 th place team goes to a bowl game in the big ten. they also have the worst ats average over the last 15 years. it’s not even close. something like 60 game’s below 50% mark. have they ever won the big ten conference? even second or third place?

i'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. i was building a house, i don't deserve this, deserves have nothing to do with it. bang. "unforgiven"

by wolfmanshowlforever on Jan 25, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Interesting Idea

I’m not sure a preemptive strike accomplishes much because even if you add Boise or whoever else is at the top of the wish list, the PAC 10 and Big 10 would still be stronger than the MWC. If Utah, BYU, or TCU get asked to go to the PAC 10 or Big 12, they’re gone, regardless of whether or not Boise St. is about to come over to the MWC. There is a natural pecking order, and it seems that the Big 10 can choose (almost) anybody they want (except Texas and ND). It’s an interesting idea, rebelfan, I just don’t think a preemptive expansion will have any effect on BYU or Utah should a bigger paycheck come knocking.

www.minerrush.com

by Adrian Mac on Apr 19, 2010 8:42 PM PDT reply actions  

The teams I would add.

If texas and Texas A&M leave for the big 10, I would add the Texas cities. This means I would add TCU in Fort Worth/Dallas area, and Houston University in Houston, Texas. Both these cities would fill there stadiums if brought into a major conference. If Missouri leaves I would bring in St. Louis university this would bring in the St. Louis metro.

by Zach Thurber on Apr 21, 2010 11:20 AM PDT reply actions  


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